Two IET failures after being hit by waves this morning along the sea wall.

1A82 0915 Penzance - Paddington had all GUs shut down by a wave.

Then a little while later 1C75 0937 Paddington - Paignton suffered the exact same issue.

You'd think after one total failure due to a wave the powers that be would have been a little more circumspect about sending another IET along the sea wall.

All IET services along the sea wall are suspended until at least 1430.

Questions for Hitachi to answer as well.

I love the analogy, but if the meetings were planned along the route I suspect they were indeed publicised locally.  (By the way, weren't the plans in the basement where the light didn't work?)

“But the plans were on display…”
“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”
“That’s the display department.”
“With a flashlight.”
“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”
“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”
“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

Reminds me of episode 1 of The Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy where Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz chastises the people of Earth for complaining against the demolition of their planet when they could have made the effort to view the plans at their local planning office on Alpha Centauri. 

Indeed, they are the professionals, they will have considered it & chosen another option.

NR have been holding open meetings along that part of the route to explain the work - you could have gone along and asked. I appreciate you may live a long way from these meetings, but there was a contact email address n the NR webpage announcing these meetings.

I am surprised they have not considered a modern viaduct on uprights. The beach would still be there and any rockfalls would fall pass under to the beach. At high tide the sea would pass under the viaduct instead of having a new seawall to batter. The uprights could be angled to dissipate the power of the sea round them.

Plans to move a storm-hit coastal rail line on to a beach have been described as "horrifying" by residents.

Network Rail has announced plans to move a mile-long stretch of the main railway away from crumbling cliffs.

Campaigners claimed it would involve the destruction of more than half of Holcombe beach near Teignmouth, Devon.

Network Rail said the plans were the "best possible solution" to preserve the line that connected Devon and Cornwall to the rest of the country.

The proposals have been part of a broader series of plans by Network Rail to safeguard the line.

These included the expansion of the sea wall, which began at Dawlish in June, following a major collapse and destruction of the rail line in February 2014.

That project was expected to be completed in January 2020 at a cost of £30m.

Ruth Ward from the Save Holcombe Beach campaign said there must be alternatives to destroying "such a beautiful beach".

"Surely in this day and age we know the sea is rising and moving it out to sea is going to make the problem from the sea worse," she added.

In 2014 the storm damage cost the local economy £1bn as a result of the six-week closure of the line, according to a spokesman for Network Rail.

"Leaving it is not an option. Changing our plans to potentially re-grade the cliff would mean we would have to close the railway line.

"It would have a massive impact on the peninsula, all the way down through Devon and into Cornwall," he added.

Network Rail said the plans were not final and further consultation would be held.

If the project went ahead the building work would begin in 2022 and take up to six years.

This is 2018's offering from Nathan Rao and Exacta Weather's James Madden:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/weather/1021047/UK-weather-long-range-forecast-Britain-heavy-snow-cold-winter-2018-Met-Office

And here's this year's:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weather/868795/UK-winter-weather-forecast-2017-snow-long-range-weather-forecast-Met-Office-BBC-weather

Plans have been announced to move the rail line at Dawlish out into the sea as part of plans to tackle major issues the Plymouth to Exeter line has suffered in the past.

Network Rail has confirmed it's hoping to extend the line and had previously said that they wanted to build a 400m (1,300ft) causeway near Teignmouth.

The project to replace the flood-hit Dawlish line, which connects the south-west to the rest of the country, would see it built about 30 yards out to sea.

The causeway option would see the line rebuild from the tunnel at Smugglers’ Lane, out on to the beach past Spray Point, and then would curve back in land towards Teignmouth.

It now appears that they are going to press ahead with that option which could cost up to £500m.

MP Anne-Marie Morris said: “It’s a scheme we’ve all been hoping and waiting for, and it is good that the £50m is now here.

“This is not just good for my constituents but the entire South West. We have been looking into these works since the [collapse of the Dawlish sea wall in 2014) and what the best solution will be.

“The decision to move out to sea comes because regrading the existing line has been found to be unviable, not just because of the money but the works would mean the railway would close for 6-12 months.

What are the technical proposals for the Dawlish rail line?

1. The line between Holcombe and Teignmouth will be relocated into the sea away from crumbling cliffs. Anne-Marie Morris explains how it needs to be ‘more robust.’

2. The continued strengthening of the sea wall at Dawlish near train station, following the high-profile collapse in February 2014.

3. Works to protect the tunnels by installing ‘avalanche shelters’ to protect the tracks from falling rocks.

4. A ‘helpdesk’ office to open to provide locals and visitors with information about the projects

“There needs to be a full consultation with residents over the loss of beach at Polcombe and Teignmouth. We are looking at Autumn 2018 for this.

“It’s great news and shows the government is delivering on its promise to make the line sustainable in the long term.”

The BBC reports survey work is already underway in preparation to realign the route between Dawlish and Teignmouth.

For the benefit of those with Twitter, this seems a pretty good way of clearing snow.....

Check out @GreaterAngliaPR’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/GreaterAngliaPR/status/970305018934054912?s=09

....and that will be paid for how and by who??

Jeremy Corbyn committed Labour to £2.5bn on rail upgrades in the South West

UK Government Statement of yesterday - (link here)

Yesterday, as Storm Emma covered the country in snow, I was on a delayed and diverted train from London back to Plymouth, wondering yet again “will I make it past Dawlish?”. The stretch of Devon railway famously washed away by storms in 2014, leaving the tracks dangling like a rope bridge, is today closed with debris from the sea wall blocking the way. Devon and Cornwall are cut off, yet again.

Snow is a rare occurrence, but disruption in and out of the South West is not. That’s why Labour made addressing this problem a key part of last year’s general election campaign in the region.

The South West gets a poor deal from government. Decades of under-investment means regional railways are slower, more precarious and prone to disruption, than they should be.

Jeremy Corbyn committed Labour to £2.5bn on rail upgrades in the South West, funding the next ten years of essential upgrades for our only train line in and out of the region. The Conservatives choose not to match our pledge.

The Tory strategy on South West rail is to make promises and issue press releases to hide inaction and underfunding. Grand soundbites are deployed, including the latest by the transport secretary declaring Dawlish his “number one national rail priority”. Really? It’s a laughable claim as billions are spent on HS2, new tubes for London, tunnels under Stonehenge and the Heathrow expansion. Where are the billions for the South West?

The spin, bluster and PR have worked to date and Conservative MPs in the far south west have dutifully played their part in this charade. They welcome soundbites while going easy on pressure that would deliver real improvements. Instead of focussing their fire on ministers who do nothing, they mock and attack those calling for action. That needs to change.

Continuing their theme of unimpressive announcements, the government this week published their South West rail strategy. The sham of a document contained no new money, no vision and no strategy. Still, one by one, south west Conservatives lined up to praise this “gradual action”. It is time our region’s MPs stopped accepting this poor deal and found the grit of colleagues who joined forces with Labour MPs to stand up to ministers over the Southern Rail shambles. Party loyalty trumps the needs of our region for many local Tories and they remain wed to parroting soundbites and “making the best of a bad situation”, as one privately remarked to me.

Labour has two MPs in the far South West – myself in Plymouth and Ben Bradshaw holding Labour’s fortress of Exeter. After the next general election, there should be five Labour MPs, perhaps more. Plymouth is Labour’s top target outside the capital in May. If we are to defeat Theresa May, it will come in places like the West Country. That’s why transport and fairness in funding matters.

The storms in 2014 cost the region £1bn in economic output. Every pound is money that should have been spent in our economy. The South West needs better transport and only Labour has pledged to fund investment in our railway. If you could lay government press releases and spin down as rails, we’d have a railway as sparkly as could be imagined. But spin and bluster doesn’t build tracks – funding and actions do. That’s what we are missing.

In May’s local elections, voters across the country have a choice about what kind of Britain they want to see. In the West Country, that choice is stark: a party that invests in our region, or one that says it does while it shuffles funding elsewhere.

As a Labour MP, it may seem odd, but I want Conservatives to copy our policy. I want them to match our commitment. I’m in politics to enact change and while we have the Conservatives in Government, I want them to do the right thing and fund our region properly. If they won’t, it’s time for them to step aside and let Labour take the helm. Remember, £2.5bn of railway upgrades with Labour or bluster and promises of jam tomorrow with the Tories. The choice, on 3rd May, is there for voters.

Which is repeating what is already underway as part of normal franchising for Devon Metro etc...

Nothing on avoiding route except telling GWR to look at services as far as Okehampton.

Nothing on avoiding route except telling GWR to look at services as far as Okehampton.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling commits to delivering a modern railway in the south-west resilient to extreme weather

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has today (28 February 2018) committed to delivering a modern railway in the south-west that is resilient to extreme weather, in the government’s response to a report by the Peninsula Rail Task Force.

Improving the resilience of the South West Peninsula is part of the biggest overhaul of the Great Western route since Brunel started work on the line more than 175 years ago, with £5.7 billion being invested in modernising the line and improving journeys for passengers. Central to this vision are upgrades to stretches of railway that run close to the sea through Teignmouth and Dawlish, safeguarding their future against damage as when storms washed away part of the line at Dawlish in 2014.

The government has already provided £15 million for Network Rail to design a long-lasting solution to this problem, in addition to the £40 million spent by Network Rail to repair the damage caused in the 2014 storm.

Even if they get the go ahead after all that there’ll probably have been a UN veto arranged...

Paul

A lot more studies, reviews, and consultations will be required, possibly followed by a public enquiry and/or a Royal commission.
The results of such studies and reviews will be that more studies are needed.

A lot more studies, reviews, and consultations will be required, possibly followed by a public enquiry and/or a Royal commission.
The results of such studies and reviews will be that more studies are needed.

Eventually a proposal will emerge, but detailed planning will then be needed, and an application for planning permission which will be opposed.

A new government will then announce that the studies, reviews, and consultations done by the last lot were flawed, and need to be done again, but better.
Meanwhile the newts are no doubt breeding, and perhaps bats also.

Kicked into the next Government....

Oh, no. 

You've just reminded me that I meant to lock this topic, last year - simply to avoid such repetitious drivel being given the oxygen of publicity.

CfN. 

Here's this years carbon copy winter-of-doom forecast from James Madden and Nathan Rao:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weather/714262/UK-snow-long-range-weather-forecast-cold-winter-2016-Britain-freeze

Without seeing any detailed information from NR, I can only make sense of the offshoring of the railway if it allows a modern seawall design to be built. By that I mean one with a sweeping curve up its face from the sea bed, so it turns a wave back on itself and stops much water coming over the top. If (as I hazily recall) that needs fairly deep water, and can't be put at the top of a shelving beach, the proposal makes some sense - otherwise the price of leaving a bit of space for cliff-falls is railway with less protection than now.

ellendune may well be correct.

The only issue with this would be the towns of Dawlish and Teignmouth potentially losing a rail service. None of the inland routes have stations in these towns due to the tunnelling involved.

Ultimately it will be a political decision that is made and it might be that tunnelling would be more cost effective in the long run.

But how many political decisions are not based on short term needs?

Just a thought

But how many political decisions are not based on short term needs?

The full report correctly states that other things will be needed other than the defence of the Dawlish Route. Link here:

http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=416753&headline=Implication%20that%20%E2%80%98northern%20route%E2%80%99%20rail%20line%20is%20not%20a%20priority&sectionIs=news&searchyear=2016

The full report correctly states that other things will be needed other than the defence of the Dawlish Route. Link here:

Link


It has to be a priority for the current ONLY route through Devon between Exeter and Plymouth to be maintained. Even £500m is cheaper than any other option.

Implication that ‘northern route’ rail line is not a priority

Friday, 28 October 2016 By Sally Shipton in Transport

TRANSPORT secretary Chris Grayling has implied that the protection of the South Devon railway route was a priority over reopening an alternative route through Okehampton.

My suspicion is the much lower priced option of keeping fingers crossed and hoping the weather isn't too bad will ultimately be the chosen solution.......after lengthy prevarication and lots of meetings of course.

And £500 million is just to fix 400 metres you don't need many other 400 metre sections like that for Options C4 and C5 at £1,500 million

And £500 million is just to fix 400 metres you don't need many other 400 metre sections like that for Options C4 and C5 at £1,500 million

£500m is a lot of money.  The inland routes don't seem so expensive as they first did. 

Here's this years offering from the Daily Express:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/nature/604619/Long-range-weather-forecast-Britain-cold-winter-2015-arctic-snow-freeze

Someone really should have a word with them!   

Storm-hit Dawlish rail line rebuild 'could cost £500m'


The proposed line would be about 400m long, and would be built about 30 yards out to sea

A coastal railway line repeatedly battered by storms could be rebuilt in Devon at a reported cost of £500m.

Network Rail wants to build a 400m (1,300ft) causeway near Teignmouth.

The project to replace the flood-hit Dawlish line, which connects the south-west to the rest of the country, would see it built about 30 yards out to sea.

The proposal is one of two options being considered by the rail operator. The other would involve stabilising the cliffs.

Julian Burnell, senior communications manager for Network Rail Western, said it was focusing on areas deemed "most at risk".

"What we've done over the last year or so is compiled an in depth study of the whole coast from Exeter down to Newton Abbot, to work out which areas are the most at risk, and which areas we need to take the most action to protect - not just for the next few years, but over the next 100 years."


Spray Point in Teignmouth has seen significant storm damage disrupt the rail service

The cliffs between Dawlish and Teignmouth have suffered severe damage in the past, with tracks left dangling in mid-air in the wake of storms in 2014.

The line was closed for several weeks in March 2014 and cost the economy up to £1.2bn.

Mr Burnell said that while the Dawlish sea wall is now stronger than ever, the new plans would protect it further.

"We're looking at potentially moving the rail line away from the cliff itself to protect it. That means onto the beach."


The sea wall at Dawlish was destroyed by high tides and stormy seas in 2014

Network Rail is launching a public consultation on November 17.

The BBC understands if approved, the project could cost £500m.

Oliver Colville, MP for Plymouth, Sutton and Devonport, said he did not want to see a repeat of the damage caused in 2014 and warned of the cost associated with the crumbling cliffs.

"[If] the cliffs come down as well that would be incredibly difficult, and cost the west Devon and Cornish economy an enormous amount of money," he said.
Speaking to the BBC two weeks ago, the prime minister said she was aware of the issue along the Dawlish rail line, but wouldn't commit to making funding available for changes.

Passengers abandoned a train after huge waves left it stranded on a coastal track.
The Arriva Cross Country service broke down after its electrics failed between Dawlish and Teignmouth at about 21:30 BST on Sunday.
The same stretch of track was destroyed by winter storms last year and was out of action for several months.
Torrential rain on Sunday night has also left a number homes flooded in Dawlish.
First Great Western said its staff were called to help passengers on the Arriva Cross Country train.
"While the majority of First Great Western services were able to continue running, there were delays to some trains while the Cross Country service was recovered," it said in a statement.
No-one from Arriva was available for immediate comment.
Four houses in Brunswick Place, Dawlish, were devastated by about 12in (30cm) of water late on Sunday night. Firefighters helped pump water from the properties.
Fire crews were also called to Tongue End in Okehampton where drains overwhelmed by rain caused flooding in a house.
The forecast for Monday is for more "heavy and prolonged rain".

I forecast a mild winter, I base this on the exceptional quantity of fire wood that I have stocked.

Hmmm, let's hope that suggestion is slightly more accurate than the nonsense sprouted in the Daily Express (and others) last Autumn saying we were all set for the coldest and snowiest winter in modern times!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/442873/Coldest-winter-in-modern-times-on-way-with-snow-forecast-for-Britain-starting-next-week

http://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/update/2015-08-14/dawlish-railway-repairs-end-with-official-opening-ceremony/

Dawlish railway repairs end with official opening ceremony

A ceremony is being held at midday to mark the end of refurbishment work around the rail line at Dawlish.

It includes the official opening of the walkway next to the track. The footpath and part of the railway were washed away by storms early last year.

(First post, so apologies if I'm doing it wrong.)

I'm beginning to think the groundwater problem between Maidenhead and Ruscombe, like some other recent floods and storm damage, isn't entirely unprecedented.
(...snip...)
A lot of the watercourses are artificial, so this was pretty marshy before they were cut. There are also some suggestive names here too (Mire Lane, Windsor Ait, ...).

Charities benefit from storms that cut Westcountry's main rail line in two


The badge that marks the sea wall's collapse


Plymouth Station Manager Mark Chorley presents a cheque to the Mayor of Dawlish Councillor John Petherick and Mayoress Councillor Linda Petherick

Badges produced to mark the 2014 storms that brought down the sea wall at Dawlish and closed the main railway line to the far South West have helped raise over ^1,000 for local charities.

During the aftermath of the storms First Great Western staff decided to raise money for the local community by selling a commemorative badge.

Designed and produced by staff at Plymouth Station, sales of the badges have raised ^1,267.30 which was recently donated to Dawlish Mayor Councillor John Petherick^s to be split between his two chosen charities.

First Great Western General Manager David Crome said: ^The badges have been so popular and it^s fantastic how much we^ve been able to raise for two very worthwhile charities.^

Mayor of Dawlish, Cllr John Petherick said: ^I am delighted with this very generous donation. Designing these badges when the railway line was breached was a very thoughtful initiative. I am deeply honoured that First Great Western has chosen to donate the money to The Mayor^s Charities. I would like to thank them on behalf of all the Dawlish community.^

The Mayor^s charities for 2014/15 are: Assist Teignbridge who offer assistance and support to elderly and vulnerable people in the locality; and Dawlish Friends of Cancer Research UK.

There are still a few badges available for sale at ^3.00 which can be purchased from the Friends of Dawlish Railway Station to help with their work at Dawlish Railway Station.

..........it's probably cutting edge, state of the art by Redruth standards!!! 

Back at Truro now, it's been gritted but Redruth end of p3 is still somewhat of an ice rink. There are 2 employees walking up and down with an old fashioned looking gritting machine

Platforms not gritted/salted?

I am on 0713 Redruth to Truro. The tm just announced coaches A, B and C will not open due to very bad ice. Not something I've heard in West Cornwall before.

Dawlish: one year on and no commitment to new railway


^Where we had a railway line we now have a Peruvian rope bridge masquerading as a railway line.^

Those were the words of Tudor Evans, the leader of Plymouth City Council, to MPs in the aftermath of last winter^s storms that saw the Great Western mainline at Dawlish collapse into the sea.

A year on from the line^s initial battering, and months after the 300-strong ^Orange Army^ of Network Rail engineers put the route back together again, the track is only modestly more protected from the ravages of the sea.

Yes, ^35 million was spent on re-building the Dawlish sea wall, re-establishing the service that links much of Devon and Cornwall with the rest of the UK in time for the vital Easter holiday season.

But progress on ensuring the line can withstand another storm of the 2014 vintage ^ adding ^resilience^ has been slow.

Shoring up the existing line? Network Rail estimates it could cost between ^398 million and ^659 million, but the quango has yet to complete a detailed report into options. It is due in the ^early part^ of this year.

A new additional inland route? A study looked into seven possibilities, and the Department for Transport said last week it is still ^looking at^ the Network Rail report which will be ^used to influence our future plans for the railways in the South West^.

Confusingly, a separate report into reviving the old Dartmoor line from Exeter to Plymouth via Okehampton has also been commissioned. Though, to be clear, that doesn^t mean it is the only option that could be taken forward or, indeed, that it will get the go-ahead.

In the meantime, the region crosses its fingers, hoping Isambard Kingdom Brunel^s snaking route can withstand another barrage (trains are still periodically delayed or cancelled during bad weather). Hardly the foundations to build a regional economy that could resemble California and its Silicon Valley, as George Osborne argued last week.

Strangely, the political will seems to be there.

Plans for a second route have been demanded for decades. Brunel himself wrote reports on tackling storm damage at Dawlish in 1855 construction work began on the so-called Dawlish Avoiding Line between Exeter and Plymouth ^ it was the subject of two parliamentary Acts ^ but was abandoned when Adolf Hitler invaded Poland in 1939 and war broke out.

In the decades since, ministers have given the idea the brush-off. Too expensive. Too difficult. Not enough political capital to be gained. Yet the events of last year changed the mood.

National exposure buoyed by the business-led Open for Business online campaign ^ #openforbusiness ^ meant the issue could no longer be parked. The billions of pounds being promised on HS2 to the north of England only heightened the sense that the South West needed to given more attention. MPs have highlighted Treasury figures showing ^41 per head spent on rail in the South West compared to ^294 in London

Every senior politician in Britain is button-holed about it the moment they enter Devon.

^What we have to do is make sure we get something that is resilient, and is matched up to the kind of weather conditions we faced last year,^ said Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin.

^I favour strengthening the transport links to the South West. The events at Dawlish demonstrated the precarious situation that we^re in,^ said Prime Minister David Cameron.

Chancellor George Osborne said: ^We are looking if we can increase the resilience and not make it so dependent on that one link.^

Liberal Democrat leader Nick Clegg? ^You can^t have the South West peninsula reliant in the long-run on a rail link that is as vulnerable to erosion and winter storms as Dawlish is.^

Ed Balls, the Shadow Chanellor, has also signalled his support. ^People in other parts of the country wouldn^t put up with the time it takes by train from Exeter or Plymouth,^ he said.

And yet nothing committed.

Andrew Leadbetter, chairman of the Peninsula Rail Task Force, a coalition of local business leaders and politicians, has warned of ^warm words^ and the initiative being lost on in thicket of reports, studies and audits.

In November, the Prime Minister urged the region to speak with ^one voice^. In fairness, it had been. The Peninsula Rail Task Force had already drawn up a plan that has gained as much consensus as a region as sparse and diverse as Cornwall, Devon and Somerset could muster. In short, there was something for everyone, a ^7 billion plan with different strands that worked together or not at all.

Some ^350 million of investment in the Dawlish line ^ compared to the ^20 million Network Rail has currently committed ^ plus two new inland routes: re-opening the Dartmoor line as a back-up and to open up rail services in under-served west Devon and north Cornwall (cost: around ^850 million), and burrowing a tunnel under Haldon Hill to create a faster inter-city service, which would come with a ^3 billion price-tag but create a genuine Dawlish Avoiding Line.

Throw in electric trains and measures to avoid flooding east of Exeter and the package still comes in at a fraction of the cost of high-speed trains between London and Birmingham. At Prime Minister^s Questions in December, Mr Cameron confirmed officials would ^take forward^ the plan. Perhaps, however, the brakes are being applied in the Westcountry rather than Whitehall. The region has held the line, more united on an issue than since the foot and mouth crisis put the far South West on lock-down. But it would be na^ve to think there are not competing priorities. It^s election year to boot.

On the south Devon coast, in areas such as Torbay and Dawlish, the fear is of the existing line being compromised. Closed even. Though few, if any, would want to call time on one of Britain^s most spectacular rail vistas. That^s why the language is so delicately poised ^ a new railway would be ^additional^ rather than an ^alternative^.

Which inland railway should be opted for is also a moot point depending on your vantage point. Many in Plymouth and, to a lesser extent, Cornwall want the faster line under Haldon Hill, arguing getting trains to the region^s biggest city in less than three hours will reap huge benefits for inward investment and tourism.

They point to the Network Rail report showing that re-opening the former London and South Western Railway route from Exeter via Okehampton, closed by Beeching in 1968 because he disliked ^duplicates^, would add four minutes to journeys to Plymouth and 14 minutes on through services to Cornwall because of trains reversing from the station.

Proponents, though, say it is a much cheaper back-up if Dawlish fails and has the added benefits for new local services. Of all the improvements, re-opening the Dartmoor line has the most political momentum. Launching his economic plan for the South West, Mr Osborne said it boasted a ^strong case^. It is assumed shoring up the existing line will happen, perhaps involving huge new breakwaters, but once more nothing has been confirmed.

Mr Osborne told an audience of business leaders last week: ^Plymouth has never received the political attention that our great cities of the north have received.

^Just as the South West has never been as much a part of the debate about our nation^s economic imbalances as the north of England has.^

He promised to address that. A full-blooded rail commitment would be a first step.

I have three children...

There is a joke I might share concerning a man from a country where condoms were illegal who found himself in Bristol, with a cornucopia of choice.

Condoms are 98% reliable if used correctly........if only NR's signals & FGW's trains could match that we'd all be happy!